Dynomotion

Group: DynoMotion Message: 13211 From: chuck6747 Date: 4/30/2016
Subject: Mill control upgrade recommendations
I recently purchased a Shizuoka B3V bed mill. The Fanuc control has been removed. The original drives have been replaced with three Geoko G320 drives. It still has the original Fanuc motors. The original 5HP DC spindle motor has been retained and retrofitted with a KB Electronics Regenerative Drive/VFD (KBRG-255). The mill has an ATC automatic toolchanger that is not operational but in future would like to make it operational.

The mill is PC controlled via Mach3 through a parallel port connection.

The previous owner admitted the control system was non-optimal and he recommended using Dynomotion's KFLOP control board.

So, I'm wondering what would be involved to update the controls on this mill?

Also should I retain the Mach3 or go with KMotionCNC?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Chuck
Group: DynoMotion Message: 13212 From: Tom Kerekes Date: 4/30/2016
Subject: Re: Mill control upgrade recommendations
Hi Chuck,

In what way is the current system non-optimal?

A KFLOP by itself could provide higher rate and smoother Step/Dir pulses to the Gecko Drives.  Re-wiring would be involved.

You would then need Spindle control.  Maybe a 3rd party Step/Dir to analog module?

A Konnect may add the necessary I/O for a tool changer

Mach3 vs KMotionCNC is much a personal choice.  Mach3 is probably better with customizing screens.  KMotionCNC is probably better at trajectory planning and optimized motion.

HTH
Regards
TK


On 4/30/2016 8:04 AM, chuck767@... [DynoMotion] wrote:
 


I recently purchased a Shizuoka B3V bed mill. The Fanuc control has been removed. The original drives have been replaced with three Geoko G320 drives. It still has the original Fanuc motors. The original 5HP DC spindle motor has been retained and retrofitted with a KB Electronics Regenerative Drive/VFD (KBRG-255). The mill has an ATC automatic toolchanger that is not operational but in future would like to make it operational.

The mill is PC controlled via Mach3 through a parallel port connection.

The previous owner admitted the control system was non-optimal and he recommended using Dynomotion's KFLOP control board.

So, I'm wondering what would be involved to update the controls on this mill?

Also should I retain the Mach3 or go with KMotionCNC?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Chuck


Group: DynoMotion Message: 13213 From: Chuck Kahler Date: 4/30/2016
Subject: Re: Mill control upgrade recommendations
Hi Tom, thanks for the response. 
As for non-optimal i'm not totally sure what the PO was referring to but I know there are no limits switches connected nor an E-stop. 

There is no MPG, step or jog selector provisions. I don't think the spindle speed is programmable.

I haven't got the mill all hooked up yet so I don't personally know the control limitations. 

I do know the PO is building a custom milling machine and he is using a KFLOP Motion control card. 

I am just a novice at this so quite frankly I'm not sure if I'm on foot or horseback :-)

Any direction would be greatly appreciated, 
Chuck








-sent from my iphone --
pardon any short response



On Apr 30, 2016, at 1:02 PM, Tom Kerekes tk@... [DynoMotion] <DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hi Chuck,

In what way is the current system non-optimal?

A KFLOP by itself could provide higher rate and smoother Step/Dir pulses to the Gecko Drives.  Re-wiring would be involved.

You would then need Spindle control.  Maybe a 3rd party Step/Dir to analog module?

A Konnect may add the necessary I/O for a tool changer

Mach3 vs KMotionCNC is much a personal choice.  Mach3 is probably better with customizing screens.  KMotionCNC is probably better at trajectory planning and optimized motion.

HTH
Regards
TK


On 4/30/2016 8:04 AM, chuck767@... [DynoMotion] wrote:
 


I recently purchased a Shizuoka B3V bed mill. The Fanuc control has been removed. The original drives have been replaced with three Geoko G320 drives. It still has the original Fanuc motors. The original 5HP DC spindle motor has been retained and retrofitted with a KB Electronics Regenerative Drive/VFD (KBRG-255). The mill has an ATC automatic toolchanger that is not operational but in future would like to make it operational.

The mill is PC controlled via Mach3 through a parallel port connection.

The previous owner admitted the control system was non-optimal and he recommended using Dynomotion's KFLOP control board.

So, I'm wondering what would be involved to update the controls on this mill?

Also should I retain the Mach3 or go with KMotionCNC?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Chuck



Group: DynoMotion Message: 13221 From: Jerry Biehler Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: Mill control upgrade recommendations
I would ditch the geckos, those things are just awful, they use a dither system where it just bounces back and forth between two encoder positions and are a nightmare to tune. There are a lot better options on the market like the ones from cncdrives.com. Or you could try the dynomotion servo card.
Group: DynoMotion Message: 13222 From: Chuck K Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: Mill control upgrade recommendations
Jerry, thanks for the input.    I definitely don't need "nightmares" in upgrading this mill.

I see the KSTEP 4-Axis Microstepper Amplifier for KFLOP would be about half the price of 4 of the  DG4S-08020 DC SERVO DRIVEs on CNCdrive.com . (~$200 vs $420).  What would be your recommendation to be the best and the friendliest for these two drives? I don't care about an extra couple hundred if for the best? 

I was starting to lean towards the UC300-5LPT USB motion controller based on some postings on one of the forums. Any comments on this controller relative to the Kflop?

Thanks,
Chuck

On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 1:27 AM, Jerry Biehler jerry.biehler@... [DynoMotion] <DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

I would ditch the geckos, those things are just awful, they use a dither system where it just bounces back and forth between two encoder positions and are a nightmare to tune. There are a lot better options on the market like the ones from cncdrives.com. Or you could try the dynomotion servo card.


Group: DynoMotion Message: 13223 From: Steve Klemp Date: 5/5/2016
Subject: Re: Mill control upgrade recommendations
Chuck, I have done several projects with the DynoMotion products.  It is awesome! But, If you don't know how to program in C language the learning curve can be steep. Tom with DynoMotion is great and will answer all your questions, there is a lot of information on there web site and on the forum.  All that I am saying is don't go into it thinking that it is a turn key solution.  It can be frustrating at times, Once complete though it is awesome.
 
.....Steve
            
 


Group: DynoMotion Message: 13231 From: David Strip Date: 5/6/2016
Subject: Re: Mill control upgrade recommendations

Group: DynoMotion Message: 13232 From: Moray Cuthill Date: 5/6/2016
Subject: Re: Mill control upgrade recommendations
David,

your post isn't entirely accurate.
Mach 3 (and KMotionCNC) do all the trajectory planning, before passing the motion to the motion controller plugin, in the format of small motion segments. The plugin then takes those segments and converts them into whatever format the plugin/motion controller programmer has decided works best for their hardware, and sends them out via USB. The motion controller then takes those commands and converts them to suitable outputs i.e. step/dir pulses.

To compare the KFlop and a UC controller, if running Mach 3, and solely using step/dir, there won't be much difference. Mach3 and the plugin is handling all of the configuration for the UC, and 90% of it for the KFlop. For the KFlop, you'd need a basic C program to initialise the coordinated motion system and tell it what kind of motion output is needed i.e. step/dir pulses. Other than that, there's little difference in the basic systems.

The great benefit of the KFlop is the ability to run custom C programs within the KFlop. Other controllers rely on the host computer handling input/outputs, so you'll always have a delay when responding to input changes, while the change gets transferred from the controller to the host computer. With Mach3, you're also limited by the 10Hz macro update frequency. With the KFlop, you can handle input changes without the host computer even knowing. You can also program it to do things not possible with Mach alone.

As for your MPG issue, I'd hazard a guess it's more likely some form of USB host/hub issue, or resource conflict. At some point in the computer architecture, all the USB ports go through the same resources. All it takes is for one device to cause issues at that point, and it can cause issues with other devices. Things like human interfaces i.e. keyboard/mouse you most likely would never notice, as unless it's causing hundreds of milliseconds of delays, you'd never likely notice, however motion controllers relying on data being handled within a few milliseconds are going to have problems.

Out of curiosity, did you try different USB ports? Ideally on separate USB root hubs.
Older computers would generally only have a single USB root hub, which would then be split via more hubs, just like taking one USB port, and plugging an external hub in to get more, all USB devices have to transfer data through that single root hub.

Moray

On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 5:19 PM, David Strip David@... [DynoMotion] <DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 


Group: DynoMotion Message: 13233 From: Chuck K Date: 5/6/2016
Subject: Re: Mill control upgrade recommendations
Steve,
Thanks for the input. I definitely do not want to get into C programming. I too hear good things about Tom.

I was starting to lean towards the UC300-5LPT USB motion controller based on some postings on one of the forums. Based on Jerry's input I think I will ditch the Gecko G320 drives. 

Any experience with  the UC300-5LPT?

Thanks,
Chuck

On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 8:29 AM, Steve Klemp steveklemp@... [DynoMotion] <DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Chuck, I have done several projects with the DynoMotion products.  It is awesome! But, If you don't know how to program in C language the learning curve can be steep. Tom with DynoMotion is great and will answer all your questions, there is a lot of information on there web site and on the forum.  All that I am saying is don't go into it thinking that it is a turn key solution.  It can be frustrating at times, Once complete though it is awesome.
 
.....Steve
            
 


Group: DynoMotion Message: 13234 From: Tom Kerekes Date: 5/6/2016
Subject: Re: Mill control upgrade recommendations

Hi Chuck,

I think you need to figure out whether you have Servo motors (Brush or Brushless) or Stepper Motors.  Our KStep will only drive Stepper Motors.  Our SnapAmp is for Servo Motors.

Regards

TK


On 5/5/2016 7:07 AM, Chuck K chuck767@... [DynoMotion] wrote:
 
Jerry, thanks for the input.    I definitely don't need "nightmares" in upgrading this mill.

I see the KSTEP 4-Axis Microstepper Amplifier for KFLOP would be about half the price of 4 of the  DG4S-08020 DC SERVO DRIVEs on CNCdrive.com . (~$200 vs $420).  What would be your recommendation to be the best and the friendliest for these two drives? I don't care about an extra couple hundred if for the best? 

I was starting to lean towards the UC300-5LPT USB motion controller based on some postings on one of the forums. Any comments on this controller relative to the Kflop?

Thanks,
Chuck

On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 1:27 AM, Jerry Biehler jerry.biehler@... [DynoMotion] <DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

I would ditch the geckos, those things are just awful, they use a dither system where it just bounces back and forth between two encoder positions and are a nightmare to tune. There are a lot better options on the market like the ones from cncdrives.com. Or you could try the dynomotion servo card.



Group: DynoMotion Message: 13237 From: David Strip Date: 5/6/2016
Subject: Re: Mill control upgrade recommendations
On 5/6/2016 11:16 AM, Moray Cuthill moray.cuthill@... [DynoMotion] wrote:
As for your MPG issue, I'd hazard a guess it's more likely some form of USB host/hub issue, or resource conflict. At some point in the computer architecture, all the USB ports go through the same resources. All it takes is for one device to cause issues at that point, and it can cause issues with other devices. Things like human interfaces i.e. keyboard/mouse you most likely would never notice, as unless it's causing hundreds of milliseconds of delays, you'd never likely notice, however motion controllers relying on data being handled within a few milliseconds are going to have problems.

I'm taking this offline from the KFlop mailing list, since this issue is not about KFlop.

I understand your point about USB ports and such, and that is consistent with the previous pendant that I had that seemed to break motion control of my router. However, I believe the MPG issue is different. The XHC controller works in all the available modes, except for MPG. The buttons work, I can assign new macros to buttons, and the handwheel works in step mode and jog mode, but not in MPG mode. From what I've read on various forums, the problem lies in the driver - MPG mode (in the sense that it's sending raw ticks) is not actually implemented. I've seen hints of an updated driver, but haven't found it yet.

--
Group: DynoMotion Message: 13238 From: samsmathers2 Date: 5/6/2016
Subject: Re: Mill control upgrade recommendations
Hi Tom
The motors are Fanuc servos. 56vdc 12Amps
Chuck
Group: DynoMotion Message: 13244 From: Tom Kerekes Date: 5/7/2016
Subject: Re: Mill control upgrade recommendations

Hi Chuck,

If they are brush motors one SnapAmp would probably drive them well.

Regards

TK


On 5/6/2016 9:33 PM, ebayrelay2@... [DynoMotion] wrote:
 

Hi Tom

The motors are Fanuc servos. 56vdc 12Amps
Chuck

Group: DynoMotion Message: 13249 From: Chuck Kahler Date: 5/8/2016
Subject: Re: Mill control upgrade recommendations
Tom
I will check to see if they are brushed motors. They were manufactured in 1980. 
Regards, 
Chuck

-sent from my iphone --
pardon any short response



On May 7, 2016, at 10:08 AM, Tom Kerekes tk@... [DynoMotion] <DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hi Chuck,

If they are brush motors one SnapAmp would probably drive them well.

Regards

TK


On 5/6/2016 9:33 PM, ebayrelay2@... [DynoMotion] wrote:
 

Hi Tom

The motors are Fanuc servos. 56vdc 12Amps
Chuck

Group: DynoMotion Message: 13251 From: Chuck Kahler Date: 5/9/2016
Subject: Re: Mill control upgrade recommendations
Tom
Yes, they are brush motors.
Regards, Chuck

-sent from my iphone --
pardon any short response



On May 7, 2016, at 10:08 AM, Tom Kerekes tk@... [DynoMotion] <DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hi Chuck,

If they are brush motors one SnapAmp would probably drive them well.

Regards

TK


On 5/6/2016 9:33 PM, ebayrelay2@... [DynoMotion] wrote:
 

Hi Tom

The motors are Fanuc servos. 56vdc 12Amps
Chuck